That is that highly educated women are often in relationships with men who aren't. Often I've seen women with MD/PhD's/JD's etc. in relationships with men who have never stepped foot into a University... for anything. Not to say that there is anything wrong with this. But I find it interesting.
I've also noticed that highly educated men are usually paired with women who have at least some form of higher education. In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of one male physician I know whose wife or girlfriend didn't at least finish college (whether she USES her degree is something else entirely). But tons of female physicians/attorneys/etc. are invested with men who are firefighters, mechanics, paramedics, enlisted military, etc.
Is there some explanation for this? Is it related to dominance, intimidation, what? Or do these women just think firefighters and mechanics are manly and sexy (fair enough!). I have no clue.
In my own experience I can say that I have (in my past life) dated many men who fit into this category. Firefighters, police officers, computer techs, etc. And while I always started the relationship not caring a hoot about their level of education, it inevitably became an issue between us. Either because we didn't have enough in common, or because of a mutual lack of respect for the other's opinion.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what you guys think. It's interesting to say the least.
Huh. Never noticed that myself. I've always heard that professional women are too choosy and need to learn to settle for less accomplished men in order to nab one at all. Your experience seems to be the opposite of that.
ReplyDeleteWell, then does the frustration with "over-choosy-ness" lead to them just picking someone and "settling"?
ReplyDeleteAnd you probably know tons of MD/PhD-ers... highly educated women.... who are they matched up with?
Yep! I've surely noticed, and I too find this quite interesting. The reason for all this, beats me as much as it beats you.
ReplyDeleteBtw, you'll be an MD I'll be a DDS. Stop by my blog sometime http://stu-dentdiaries.com.
One thing to keep in mind is that education level doesn't necessarily correspond to intelligence. Your post implies that men with "less education" aren't intelligent, which isn't always correct. I know plenty of people that have finished college that are not intelligent by any means, they slid through college and walked away with a degree, and I know plenty of people that never "stepped foot in a university" that I can have very in depth conversations about very intelligent things. I am sure this isn't always the case but, just something to think about.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I am a female with an MD who's husband didn't graduate from college--he completed 1 year at a Ivy League school and was then offered the job of his dreams. He dropped out of school, took the job. He has no college degree, but is probably one of the most intelligent men I know.
I'm very sure my post mentions NOTHING about people who don't go to college and their level of intelligence. I think you inferred that all on your own.
ReplyDeleteI graduated (got politely told to leave with a fancy piece of paper is more akin to what really happened).
ReplyDeleteI dated a guy who went to a 2-year community college and dropped out after 1st term.
It seemed he was more grounded, less arrogant, and more in-tune to real life rather than theory crafting. As it turned out, however, his lack of pursuing a degree meant he did not understand my desire to get an MBA (back then, almost 20 years ago)... and I'm damn sure he's laughing at the thought of me getting M.D.
What was it about him beyond lack of arrogance?
He had this zest for life that was not captured in a business world job; he had found his passions outside of a job and pursued them... not to mention he was CUTE!
I'm working on a joint bachelor degree currently (nothing compared to most of you but I identify as a late bloomer) but I personally find men in blue collar positions to have very strong personalities, a nice match to me because I too have a very strong personality. Does that make sense?
ReplyDeleteBetween 2000 and 2005 I worked as a welder, a bicycle mechanic, and a line cook. I had two serious relationships in that time - the first wound up applying to medical school a couple of years ago and is probably starting residency now. The second had a double major in equine science and psychology.
ReplyDeleteThe first, which I'll call J, had no issue whatsoever with the fact that she was finishing college and that I was not. I've always had a deep interest in science and I encouraged her to pursue her interest. In all honesty, I loved the fact that she was as sharp as she was - I didn't feel like I had to water myself down so, even though I turned a wrench for a living, we had a great relationship.
The second girl, who I'm going to creatively call S, was quite the opposite. When she and I met, I was teaching myself algebra and trig so that I could start calculus in the fall at Big Time U. Over the next two years, I became a standout in the physics department at that institution. It bothered her that I had to spend so much time at school studying and it became a serious issue between us. She had already graduated with two degrees and would constantly tell me things like: "I don't know why you're always so busy with school - I got two degrees at the same time and I never had to spend 8 hours a day studying after class". I (wisely) avoided making the obvious point that physics might require a bit more time than her two degrees did. In hindsight, I believe that there were some deeper issues of self-worth at work there, but it's still of interest to me that, after spending 4 years studying for her degrees, it bothered her to see someone else do so and succeed.
Ultimately, I have to agree with the commenter that said education doesn't equal intelligence....that's a huge clue to understanding the dynamic between highly educated men and / or women.
I think it also may have to do with the man's willingness to support the woman's career interest. I can't begin to count the number of dual "professional" couples in which the husband's career comes first, and he really doesn't support his wife's career. In many cases, that means they move to where he gets a job, and if she doesn't, she's just supposed to suck it up.
ReplyDeleteI know some couples like those you describe, and the men in those couples seem much more flexible and supportive. Often, they can find jobs pretty much anywhere, too.
Of course I agree that education is in no way synonymous with intelligence. Which is why I didn't even put it into the post... because that's not what I want to discuss. Any idiot knows that education and intelligence are independent entities.
ReplyDeleteBut I think issues do arise when there is a severe discrepancy in the level of education between two people in a relationship. Like I mentioned before... lack of respect for the other's opinion (either bc one is coming from either an over or under educated perspective compared to the other one). Or one person doesn't fully appreciate the other person's view of and need for education as a whole.
Another example is with one of my ex-boyfriends. I had my Masters and was on my way to med school when we were dating. He only finished high school. Although I never asked him, nor insinuated that he should... he decided to go back to college (starting from square one) after we'd been dating about 2 years. Which of course I supported him. But truthfully, I think he was doing it bc of me. I think he felt like he had to in order to be part of my world. And I don't think he was really comfortable with that. I'm not sure... because we never really talked about it. But that was how I felt. And immediately after we broke up he dropped out of school. So that kind of proved my theory, I guess.
That and I also noticed that our interests were consistently very different. Which may have nothing to do with education level... but I ENJOY academic conferences, journal clubs, research, book clubs, etc and yada yada. Things that I assume the majority of people outside academia would be bored by.
Additionally, it is entirely possible that I have just dated boring losers. :)
I think one of the people who posted, accurately mentions self worth and self esteem issues as a primary reason. Personally, I think initially, unless either side is *only* dating people on their level of education, people start dating because they click socially. Whether it's because they met in a bar, at school, online dating and found each other attractive/funny/cool, etc, no one but them knows. It's later when the true feelings, desires and insecurities come out that having varying professional levels can hurt their self-esteem (women or men included). On the surface is looks like professional differences were key, but deep down, perhaps it could be that it was a contributing factor to a much more deeper rooted problem that will exist in every relationship for that person but had been exacerbated by the high (or low) level of education/professionalism of their current partner. This is a tough question... I'm curious, too.
ReplyDeleteWhat about child-rearing? If the woman is in a high powered job she may appreciate that a man with less power and presumably more time can contribute to household stuff.
ReplyDeleteI think the true answer to this question cannot be anecdotal because I myself am an exception to this phenomenon. I've always dated men who have had at least a graduate degree when I was doing things like working at Starbucks and taking a year off school. I ended up marrying one of them. I was always ambitious but not academically confident. The men always complimented my ambition but I never accomplished anything tangible. Then. by associating with my husband I've quite literally become a differnt person -- valuing results over intention. Only now can one argue that I do fit this phenomenon.
Point is, there is more going on in a relationship than a simple difference in education/or achievement. So I think it's an insignificant variable for some couples.
Any sociology professors in the house?
Before I met my husband, I dated a pretty steady string of really, really nerdy guys. I typically ended up with engineers, physicists, chemists, computer programmers, etc. I think a lot of the time, when I encountered someone who was really smart (academically), he had social deficits as a result.
ReplyDeleteI met my husband after college when we were both working together at a nursing home. He was one of the nurses, I was one of the caregivers. We both grew up in the same town (even though we had never previously met and I had just moved back). He dropped out of high school, then later went to college and dropped out, started a business (a sawmill), and then later went back to school to become a nurse (finished that time)! I actually think he is quite intelligent, and significantly more well-rounded than other men I have dated. He also has a lot of common sense, which an extremely important quality to me but can sometimes be lacking in the super-academic types.
I think his primary reasons for not finishing school when he was younger were a lack of respect for authority (which I can understand, considering all the bureaucratic bullshit that happens at universities on a regular basis) and a tendency to place his own values before pre-determined rules.
He tends to value the things he enjoys in his life (spending time with his family, having a home, landscaping, hiking, traveling) more than his education and his career. Since we have a young child, I feel extremely fortunate to have married a guy who would prefer to take care of our son and things at home while I can finish my education!
I don't know if I've really answered your question, but what I have found in my marriage is that I still have a lot in common with my husband (and similar goals in life) even though he doesn't have the same kind of education (and educational goals). And okay, I admit it, strong lumberjack-type men are sexy!
After spending 4 years at an Ivy League school and dating someone there for 3 years once I got out into the real world I found that I was more attracted to guys who could be considered "blue collar". They loved the fact that I was smart and driven. I think they were so used to girls who were pretty but not motivated that I was like an anomaly to them. They also realized that I would see through any bull so in my opinion our relationship was very open and honest. For me they were unpretentious and actually wanted to hear what I had to say. It also didn't hurt that I could spend hours just looking at them...
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day though I believe that you just click with some people. Whether they have a few letters after their name or not.
Ella -- In answer to your question, I'll list a few of the matches that come to mind (sadly, there aren't as many female MD-PhDs as you might think....)
ReplyDelete#1 - Internal Medicine tenured academic woman married to Gyn/Onc surgeon
#2 - Endocrinologist tenure track academic woman married to Cardiologist
#3 - MD-PhD student married to herpes virologist (PhD) -- that's me
#4 - MD-PhD student married to EM resident (they have 2 kids)
#5 - MD-PhD student married to marketing consultant
#6 - MD-PhD student dating other MD-PhD student
#7 - MD-PhD student dating internal medicine resident
#8 - MD-PhD student married to SAHD/computer programmer
#9 - MD-PhD tenured basic science prof/rheumatologist married to doctor of unknown type
#10 - PhD scientist in my field married to Cardiologist
So, nobody with anybody even remotely blue collar that I know. Maybe it's an East Coast thing?
There's definitely not anything wrong with being blue collar, and a lot of good things about it. However the one problem I've run into with some blue collar types is that apparently I come off to some people like I'm trying to sound smart or something. For using a word with 3 syllables ("Wow, that's a fancy word. Did you learn that in *college?*" with sarcastic tone.). If they're secure with themselves, this isn't usually a problem.
Anyway, long and short of it is there are plenty of great guys out there from all sorts of backgrounds.
My best friend is a PhD in biochemistry who graduated college summa cum laude and her husband works as a telemarketer, unable to get into grad school with a 2.5 college GPA. I once asked her if the discrepancy in professional success/education levels was ever an issue between them, but she said that it was actually something she enjoyed about their relationship. The way she viewed it, her career was already so demanding and stressful that she didn't want to go home to someone who was equally stressed or focused on his own career. After a long day in lab, she could go home to a clean house, already-made dinner, and relax with her husband. Somehow, this dynamic works out great for them.
ReplyDeleteEducation and intelligence are correlated, but of course there are people who are intelligent and less educated and those that are relatively educated and less intelligent than the metaphorical plumber who reads Dosteovesky. Educated and intelligent people are likely to go together because most couplings are relatively homogenous, so in this same way the less educated and less intelligent will be most comfortable together. A larger discrepancy in these two things between members of a couple can be a source of conflict in the form of boredom, the feeling that you are "settling" or being settled for, inability to talk shop--he can't understand my research paradigm, I can't understand his work. However, there's no reason why this would be limited to blue collar/white collar. If I am a MD student and he is a software developer, we are both perhaps intelligent/educated but only in our respective spheres. The real issue, I think, that drives educated people together is 1) where you meet (many meet partners in grad school/early professional work, where we are likely to be similiar in educational attainment). If we are in different professions I may not bother to recap a work incident because the background information may be too exhausting to tell the anecdote, but I think an important mechanism to consider is curiosity, which may be correlated with education and is certainly correlated with intelligence. People high on this dimension will be attracted to others who are curious, even if this manifests in a different discipline (physics vs. psychology, for example), but the educated and curious may have trouble wrapping their minds and hearts around the proverbial scholar plumber, because they themselves are motivated to devote their jobs (not just their free time) to discovering more about this thing they love and are passionate and curious about. People like this may also have trouble identifying and bonding with people who do not evidence this curiosity and can therefore be perfectly content doing a "job" that just pays the bills and allows one to be at home for dinner on time.
ReplyDeleteA few people I've met and an ex-boyfriend have initially been interested in my impressive sounding first degree. When the need came to crack quips, the people joked about how posh and privileged I must be. My ex used to brag about it to his friends about how smart I was while we were going out, and then used it to make a bitter, break-up insults about how I apparently thought I was upper-class and superior.
ReplyDeleteDifferences in levels of education aren't an issue for me, but several times it has become an issue for other people. I come from a poor background and I had a rough time at uni, I've ended up walking into a low paid, 'supposedly' good job anyway despite my degree. Most of the time I avoid saying where I went and what I really do in order to build better first impressions quicker.
Sorry to double post, but OldMdGirl's post rang a bell. I come from a country where it is very uncommon to find professional people married/dating un-professional people (or people without at least a college education), simply because unlike in US, education is free for all - if you didn't make it, it had nothing to do with money, all was in your motivation. If you have no motivation to be successful, that makes you "uncool" in the eyes of those who are educated (and hence "cool"), thus they don't hang out with you. To make a long story short, I can probably give you at least 10 sets of parents of my friends who are all physicians married to physicians, many MD/PhDs... and (this is going to sound racist and bad) they targeted those groups of people on purpose. They purposely looked to hang out with and subsequently marry people of their "rank" sort of speak. Because if you don't, your friends are going to criticize you and won't hang out with you, so why bother? Maybe that's a European thing, I don't know... I'm sure there's a lot to say about that, but maybe it's a cultural thing... who knows?
ReplyDelete